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	<title>Comments for Charles T. Tart</title>
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		<title>Comment on Motivation and the Five Percent Who Stick With It by Rocket</title>
		<link>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/306/comment-page-1#comment-17578</link>
		<dc:creator>Rocket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:12:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/?p=306#comment-17578</guid>
		<description>The most well trained and experienced instructor I&#039;ve met makes the point success and permanent change comes not  from monumental effort but via sufficient relaxing into that deeply stabilized focus for sustained periods.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The most well trained and experienced instructor I&#8217;ve met makes the point success and permanent change comes not  from monumental effort but via sufficient relaxing into that deeply stabilized focus for sustained periods.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Motivation and the Five Percent Who Stick With It by Rocket</title>
		<link>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/306/comment-page-1#comment-17577</link>
		<dc:creator>Rocket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/?p=306#comment-17577</guid>
		<description>Like Werner Erhard used to say,   &quot;understanding is the booby prize&quot;.   What keeps people at it is success in acquiring freedom from the pain and lack of meaning in life.  Its not about dragging your ass to the cushion,  its about loving that cushion because of the enhancements it brings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like Werner Erhard used to say,   &#8220;understanding is the booby prize&#8221;.   What keeps people at it is success in acquiring freedom from the pain and lack of meaning in life.  Its not about dragging your ass to the cushion,  its about loving that cushion because of the enhancements it brings.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Motivation and the Five Percent Who Stick With It by Sandy</title>
		<link>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/306/comment-page-1#comment-17576</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 18:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/?p=306#comment-17576</guid>
		<description>I kind of wonder if I would still be meditating if my life&#039;s problems were sorted out. Probably not. I mentioned the 5% idea to my counselor, and he thinks 5% is way too high an estimate of how many people stick with meditation. He bases that on his experience with people taking up any kind of spiritual or religious practise. He says people typically look for such things when times are tough, and they are quick to abandon them as things improve.

He thinks it is almost funny how I get pushed back into meditating every time I stop because I seem to need it. In my case the meditation helps me cope with anomalous experiences, but it also makes them more common. Because they are more common, I really need the meditation more as I go along. A weird sort of feedback loop.

My experiences are common enough that I&#039;ve even managed to get some evidence of them on video. I spent my last counseling session discussing a video of me making my pk pinwheel spin. What my counselor noticed was how relaxed I was when doing that sort of pk (as opposed to light bulbs popping when I&#039;m upset). That&#039;s what the mediation seems to be doing for me... making it possible for me to relax when unexplainable things are happening in my life. I think as long as those sorts of things keep on happening, I&#039;m probably going to need to meditate. (I haven&#039;t given up on a cure though. I may find one yet.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I kind of wonder if I would still be meditating if my life&#8217;s problems were sorted out. Probably not. I mentioned the 5% idea to my counselor, and he thinks 5% is way too high an estimate of how many people stick with meditation. He bases that on his experience with people taking up any kind of spiritual or religious practise. He says people typically look for such things when times are tough, and they are quick to abandon them as things improve.</p>
<p>He thinks it is almost funny how I get pushed back into meditating every time I stop because I seem to need it. In my case the meditation helps me cope with anomalous experiences, but it also makes them more common. Because they are more common, I really need the meditation more as I go along. A weird sort of feedback loop.</p>
<p>My experiences are common enough that I&#8217;ve even managed to get some evidence of them on video. I spent my last counseling session discussing a video of me making my pk pinwheel spin. What my counselor noticed was how relaxed I was when doing that sort of pk (as opposed to light bulbs popping when I&#8217;m upset). That&#8217;s what the mediation seems to be doing for me&#8230; making it possible for me to relax when unexplainable things are happening in my life. I think as long as those sorts of things keep on happening, I&#8217;m probably going to need to meditate. (I haven&#8217;t given up on a cure though. I may find one yet.)</p>
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		<title>Comment on Meditation’s Five Percenters by Rocket</title>
		<link>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/304/comment-page-1#comment-17575</link>
		<dc:creator>Rocket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Mar 2010 15:30:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/?p=304#comment-17575</guid>
		<description>Tibetan meditative tradition came out of a culture where your average adolescent male sent his sixteenth summer in a high mountain meadow watching Yaks graze.   Here in the states the focus is on cars,  beer, nooky,  computers ...   and whatever &quot;values&quot; are conveyed by TV or pop culture.   By the time we are adults only a tiny percent are not emotionally out of balance  (more or less 5% ? )  even if from one of those &quot;rare as a hens tooth&quot; emotionally healthy families  ....we are steeped in a culture that is emotionally out of balance.  Dredging up emotional injuries from childhood to neutralize the way we react to life when those issues pull the strings on us from beneath the threshold of consciousness is downright taboo.   Only a tiny number of therapist have done it themselves and you sure cannot guide someone else thru it until you have done it your self.

The process of patching up emotional injuries is messy and &quot;not to the taste&quot; even of 97% of all psychotherapists I have met and known.   Psychiatry?   forget it.   Those folks are trained to institutionalize mental emotional illness at the behest of the pharmaceutical industry.  They are trained to give drugs.  Period.  ...  and other parts of treatment do not address emotions which in almost all cases are the driver of behavioral problems of those confined in hospitals and also the masses of us walking around &quot;normal&quot;.   I&#039;ve seen people go off the edge and become crazier by what they were subjected to in a psychiatric hospital while the well meaning staff was way way overwhelmed and not trained to do anything significant except prescribe very expensive drugs and other expensive drugs to combat side effects of of the first drug.

ONe of my close friends&#039; father wrote three of the chapters in the standard pharmacology text used in USA medical schools,  including the chapter of drugs for psychiatry.  He put one of his kids on Haldol starting when the kid was age nine ....  at a time the kid was acting out during a divorce that included violent behavior by the father.    This guy was one of seven research fellows the federal government called on  when they want advice from a psychiatrist about drugs for the mind.  The feds thru the VA system published a book he wrote about how psychedelics make you psychotic.

Culturally we are cut off from the potentials the Tibetans and other pre industrial cultures have developed to heal the mind of emotional issues by the fact our emotional issues tend to be so &quot;high amplitude&quot; we cannot even relax.   stabilize and  focus the mind for a few minutes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tibetan meditative tradition came out of a culture where your average adolescent male sent his sixteenth summer in a high mountain meadow watching Yaks graze.   Here in the states the focus is on cars,  beer, nooky,  computers &#8230;   and whatever &#8220;values&#8221; are conveyed by TV or pop culture.   By the time we are adults only a tiny percent are not emotionally out of balance  (more or less 5% ? )  even if from one of those &#8220;rare as a hens tooth&#8221; emotionally healthy families  &#8230;.we are steeped in a culture that is emotionally out of balance.  Dredging up emotional injuries from childhood to neutralize the way we react to life when those issues pull the strings on us from beneath the threshold of consciousness is downright taboo.   Only a tiny number of therapist have done it themselves and you sure cannot guide someone else thru it until you have done it your self.</p>
<p>The process of patching up emotional injuries is messy and &#8220;not to the taste&#8221; even of 97% of all psychotherapists I have met and known.   Psychiatry?   forget it.   Those folks are trained to institutionalize mental emotional illness at the behest of the pharmaceutical industry.  They are trained to give drugs.  Period.  &#8230;  and other parts of treatment do not address emotions which in almost all cases are the driver of behavioral problems of those confined in hospitals and also the masses of us walking around &#8220;normal&#8221;.   I&#8217;ve seen people go off the edge and become crazier by what they were subjected to in a psychiatric hospital while the well meaning staff was way way overwhelmed and not trained to do anything significant except prescribe very expensive drugs and other expensive drugs to combat side effects of of the first drug.</p>
<p>ONe of my close friends&#8217; father wrote three of the chapters in the standard pharmacology text used in USA medical schools,  including the chapter of drugs for psychiatry.  He put one of his kids on Haldol starting when the kid was age nine &#8230;.  at a time the kid was acting out during a divorce that included violent behavior by the father.    This guy was one of seven research fellows the federal government called on  when they want advice from a psychiatrist about drugs for the mind.  The feds thru the VA system published a book he wrote about how psychedelics make you psychotic.</p>
<p>Culturally we are cut off from the potentials the Tibetans and other pre industrial cultures have developed to heal the mind of emotional issues by the fact our emotional issues tend to be so &#8220;high amplitude&#8221; we cannot even relax.   stabilize and  focus the mind for a few minutes.</p>
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		<title>Comment on How to Deal with Spiritual Bypass by Sandy</title>
		<link>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/302/comment-page-1#comment-17574</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 19:58:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/?p=302#comment-17574</guid>
		<description>In my own case, my counselor has been very surprised by how useful meditation has been for me. This is new territory as far as he is concerned. There are times when I need to work out problems with him in order to become unstuck with where I am in life. But other times the only thing that has helped is meditation.

I think my counselor had previously looked at meditation as just being a good way to relax. Now he is asking questions about what else it may be doing. There is still the problem with meditation tending to increase the likelihood of having anomalous experiences. Sometimes I stop meditating because I don&#039;t like that part, but the benefits generally outweigh the problems so I keep going back to meditation. 

Talking to a counselor has made coping with the anomalous experiences easier to handle.  I don&#039;t automatically interpret such experiences as being bad anymore. I&#039;m learning to see the good in them. Meditation seems to be giving me at least a bit of control over the experiences. Somehow they seem to make more sense than they used to. So both counseling and meditation are helping me. It sure is a lot for me, and my counselor, to figure out though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In my own case, my counselor has been very surprised by how useful meditation has been for me. This is new territory as far as he is concerned. There are times when I need to work out problems with him in order to become unstuck with where I am in life. But other times the only thing that has helped is meditation.</p>
<p>I think my counselor had previously looked at meditation as just being a good way to relax. Now he is asking questions about what else it may be doing. There is still the problem with meditation tending to increase the likelihood of having anomalous experiences. Sometimes I stop meditating because I don&#8217;t like that part, but the benefits generally outweigh the problems so I keep going back to meditation. </p>
<p>Talking to a counselor has made coping with the anomalous experiences easier to handle.  I don&#8217;t automatically interpret such experiences as being bad anymore. I&#8217;m learning to see the good in them. Meditation seems to be giving me at least a bit of control over the experiences. Somehow they seem to make more sense than they used to. So both counseling and meditation are helping me. It sure is a lot for me, and my counselor, to figure out though.</p>
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		<title>Comment on How to Deal with Spiritual Bypass by Dr. Charles T. Tart</title>
		<link>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/302/comment-page-1#comment-17573</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Charles T. Tart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 18:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/?p=302#comment-17573</guid>
		<description>Right!  To overstate it, psychologists know about how to deal (at least partly) with emotional problems and irrational defenses, but know nothing of the deeper mind meditation practice can reach.  Meditaters tend to go for that deep stuff, but may be deeply blocked by unacknowledged emotional issues.  Their teachers tell them to meditate more, which might do it after a zillion hours of further practice, but might be very inefficient compared to going and getting some psychological help to undo those emotional blocks.  What I  hope Transpersonal Psychology will be able to do some day, as we learn more, is to say, with high efficiency, when to meditate more and when to get some psychological help...
I say a lot about this in my Waking Up book in a chapter on defense mechanisms and how they distort our efforts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right!  To overstate it, psychologists know about how to deal (at least partly) with emotional problems and irrational defenses, but know nothing of the deeper mind meditation practice can reach.  Meditaters tend to go for that deep stuff, but may be deeply blocked by unacknowledged emotional issues.  Their teachers tell them to meditate more, which might do it after a zillion hours of further practice, but might be very inefficient compared to going and getting some psychological help to undo those emotional blocks.  What I  hope Transpersonal Psychology will be able to do some day, as we learn more, is to say, with high efficiency, when to meditate more and when to get some psychological help&#8230;<br />
I say a lot about this in my Waking Up book in a chapter on defense mechanisms and how they distort our efforts.</p>
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		<title>Comment on How to Deal with Spiritual Bypass by Rocket</title>
		<link>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/302/comment-page-1#comment-17572</link>
		<dc:creator>Rocket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/?p=302#comment-17572</guid>
		<description>I have noticed folks who become meditators before they do the more gutsy emotional work on themselves often turn the meditator thing into an ego trip ...  holier than thou ...  it becomes a defense I suppose.

Others,  and I think this is common,  psychologist friends have commented on it .....   go for meditation training and get nothing at all out of it.  I was one.   I strongly suspect  emotional &quot;skeletons in the closet&quot; that hijack consciousness making the necessary unperturbable stability,  focus and relaxation impossible.  It&#039;s very hard work to become transparent to that emotional stuff.  My experience is you have to  return to the vulnerability of the child in a stable therapeutic container (psychedelics CAN speed it up like crazy too)   to the time you sustained the original injury and then it transforms to tranparent immediately.     Also most meditation instruction in the west leaves an essential step out,  development of a degree of Samadhi first.  Again emotional skeltons make the requisite degree of focus and relaxation almost impossible.

 &quot;Yep. It’s not as if there’s any one behavior or internal strategy that is the optimal thing for all situations.&quot;

Perhaps one could say  one must become transparent to the emotional reactions,  thus no longer controlled (limited)  by them.  Then Samadhi becomes accessible ....    insight or Vipassana is one secondary or knock on result of the presence  of Samadhi.  That has been my experience.  It was not in the least subtle.


&quot;Now the mindfulness traditions would claim that the practice of mindfulness is all you need. No, no, I shouldn’t say all. It’s the main thing you need to eventually recognize those sources and change them. That eventually you’ll have insights into your personality that will let you change some of the more maladaptive psychological things, but eventually you’ll have the more important insights as to who you really are, which will make the big change.&quot;

Mindfulness may be all you need but emotional issues are a big obstacle to mindfulness.   The Dalai Lama at a meeting of Neuroscience and Buddhists at Stanford in Oct 2005 flatly stated (paraphrasing) &quot;mastery of the emotions&quot; is what Buddhism has to bring to that table.   We westerners have &quot;special needs,&quot; so to speak,  before we have access to the wisdom of the Tibetans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have noticed folks who become meditators before they do the more gutsy emotional work on themselves often turn the meditator thing into an ego trip &#8230;  holier than thou &#8230;  it becomes a defense I suppose.</p>
<p>Others,  and I think this is common,  psychologist friends have commented on it &#8230;..   go for meditation training and get nothing at all out of it.  I was one.   I strongly suspect  emotional &#8220;skeletons in the closet&#8221; that hijack consciousness making the necessary unperturbable stability,  focus and relaxation impossible.  It&#8217;s very hard work to become transparent to that emotional stuff.  My experience is you have to  return to the vulnerability of the child in a stable therapeutic container (psychedelics CAN speed it up like crazy too)   to the time you sustained the original injury and then it transforms to tranparent immediately.     Also most meditation instruction in the west leaves an essential step out,  development of a degree of Samadhi first.  Again emotional skeltons make the requisite degree of focus and relaxation almost impossible.</p>
<p> &#8220;Yep. It’s not as if there’s any one behavior or internal strategy that is the optimal thing for all situations.&#8221;</p>
<p>Perhaps one could say  one must become transparent to the emotional reactions,  thus no longer controlled (limited)  by them.  Then Samadhi becomes accessible &#8230;.    insight or Vipassana is one secondary or knock on result of the presence  of Samadhi.  That has been my experience.  It was not in the least subtle.</p>
<p>&#8220;Now the mindfulness traditions would claim that the practice of mindfulness is all you need. No, no, I shouldn’t say all. It’s the main thing you need to eventually recognize those sources and change them. That eventually you’ll have insights into your personality that will let you change some of the more maladaptive psychological things, but eventually you’ll have the more important insights as to who you really are, which will make the big change.&#8221;</p>
<p>Mindfulness may be all you need but emotional issues are a big obstacle to mindfulness.   The Dalai Lama at a meeting of Neuroscience and Buddhists at Stanford in Oct 2005 flatly stated (paraphrasing) &#8220;mastery of the emotions&#8221; is what Buddhism has to bring to that table.   We westerners have &#8220;special needs,&#8221; so to speak,  before we have access to the wisdom of the Tibetans.</p>
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		<title>Comment on A Sure Sign of Aging? by Omnipleasant</title>
		<link>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/294/comment-page-1#comment-17571</link>
		<dc:creator>Omnipleasant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Feb 2010 13:28:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/?p=294#comment-17571</guid>
		<description>Haha, I&#039;d be the same and I&#039;m 32. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Haha, I&#8217;d be the same and I&#8217;m 32. <img src='http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/wp-content/plugins/tango-smileys-extended/tango/wink.png' alt='Wink' width='16' height='16' style='vertical-align: middle !important;' /></p>
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		<title>Comment on Scientists with Personal Experience of What They Study by Sandy</title>
		<link>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/296/comment-page-1#comment-17570</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Feb 2010 01:13:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/?p=296#comment-17570</guid>
		<description>Rocket,
I took no offense, if that was your concern. Your comment simply resonated with me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rocket,<br />
I took no offense, if that was your concern. Your comment simply resonated with me.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Scientists with Personal Experience of What They Study by Rocket</title>
		<link>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/296/comment-page-1#comment-17569</link>
		<dc:creator>Rocket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Feb 2010 15:44:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/?p=296#comment-17569</guid>
		<description>My comment was not about you or addressed to you.  I would not presume...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My comment was not about you or addressed to you.  I would not presume&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Scientists with Personal Experience of What They Study by Sandy</title>
		<link>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/296/comment-page-1#comment-17568</link>
		<dc:creator>Sandy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Feb 2010 17:09:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/?p=296#comment-17568</guid>
		<description>Rocket, I have to admit it. I don&#039;t want to be transformed by my experiences. I want to figure out why they are happening so that I can &quot;fix&quot; them. Maybe I&#039;m just having a bad day, but I want to pathologize these experiences, study them in a lab and cure myself of them.

Maybe I need to start meditating again...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rocket, I have to admit it. I don&#8217;t want to be transformed by my experiences. I want to figure out why they are happening so that I can &#8220;fix&#8221; them. Maybe I&#8217;m just having a bad day, but I want to pathologize these experiences, study them in a lab and cure myself of them.</p>
<p>Maybe I need to start meditating again&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Scientists with Personal Experience of What They Study by Rocket</title>
		<link>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/296/comment-page-1#comment-17567</link>
		<dc:creator>Rocket</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 14:40:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/?p=296#comment-17567</guid>
		<description>I think we must begin to legitimize  &quot;subjective science&quot;  ie the observation of ones own mind and emotions to understand it and refine its function.  &quot;Objective science&quot; is the only science we currently have is fine if what you want to do is build a safe bridge but in the realm of psychology,  mental health,  behavioral science it is a dismal failure. Those areas are arguably the most critical ones humans face considering the decisions we make collectively regarding consumption,  greed,  how we treat one another,  the environment and how those things endanger our future,  how that danger drives further distorted behaviors.

The largest mental hospital in the world is the LA County mens jail.   They spend $150K a week on drugs to &quot;treat&quot; inmates and have nothing but escalating problems.   Psychiatrists are trained solely to give drugs or to talk sense to people whose emotions have hijacked their behavior,  even for issues that are psycho social in nature and are not organic.  The emotions come from a more primitive part of our brain and trump intellect. The pharm industry loves it and has vastly too much influence on the way physicians are trained and the paradigm of medicine generally at the expense of other types of solutions.  We need to legitimize introspection,  self observation to master our emotions as no white coat &quot;expert&quot;  can ever truly observe and influence another persons mind directly.  The Tibetans have a lot to teach us,  they have been at it for a long time.

The human mind heals itself spontaneously just as the body does and the process of skilled observation of our minds initiates and drives that process.  One of my favorite scientists of all time,  Willis Harman,  said (I&#039;m paraphrasing)   one of the big obstacles is the willingness of scientists themselves personally to be transformed by their experiences instead of stuffing their heads full of facts out of books then declare that makes them the authority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we must begin to legitimize  &#8220;subjective science&#8221;  ie the observation of ones own mind and emotions to understand it and refine its function.  &#8220;Objective science&#8221; is the only science we currently have is fine if what you want to do is build a safe bridge but in the realm of psychology,  mental health,  behavioral science it is a dismal failure. Those areas are arguably the most critical ones humans face considering the decisions we make collectively regarding consumption,  greed,  how we treat one another,  the environment and how those things endanger our future,  how that danger drives further distorted behaviors.</p>
<p>The largest mental hospital in the world is the LA County mens jail.   They spend $150K a week on drugs to &#8220;treat&#8221; inmates and have nothing but escalating problems.   Psychiatrists are trained solely to give drugs or to talk sense to people whose emotions have hijacked their behavior,  even for issues that are psycho social in nature and are not organic.  The emotions come from a more primitive part of our brain and trump intellect. The pharm industry loves it and has vastly too much influence on the way physicians are trained and the paradigm of medicine generally at the expense of other types of solutions.  We need to legitimize introspection,  self observation to master our emotions as no white coat &#8220;expert&#8221;  can ever truly observe and influence another persons mind directly.  The Tibetans have a lot to teach us,  they have been at it for a long time.</p>
<p>The human mind heals itself spontaneously just as the body does and the process of skilled observation of our minds initiates and drives that process.  One of my favorite scientists of all time,  Willis Harman,  said (I&#8217;m paraphrasing)   one of the big obstacles is the willingness of scientists themselves personally to be transformed by their experiences instead of stuffing their heads full of facts out of books then declare that makes them the authority.</p>
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