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	<title>Charles T. Tart &#187; identification</title>
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		<title>Dealing With Emotions: Levels of Practice in Buddhism and Gurdjieff Work</title>
		<link>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/674</link>
		<comments>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/674#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2011 22:23:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Charles T. Tart</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Consciousness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Explorations on the Spiritual Side]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Transpersonal]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[attention]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[automatization]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[awareness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Buddhism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Charles T. Tart]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Charles Tart]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[compassion]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Dzogchen]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[emotional intelligence]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[emotions]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[enlightenment]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Gurdjieff]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[identification]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Institute of Transpersonal Psychology]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[nature of mind]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ordinary mind]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Shinzen Young]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Sogyal Rinpoche]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Tibetan Buddhism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[vipassana]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[Listening to some Buddhist teachings for dealing with emotions last night, and to fellow students' understandings these teachings, I put together a number of things that struck me is saying something about levels of dealing with emotions. The first level, what we might call the level of not particularly dealing with an emotion, is the [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Listening to some Buddhist teachings for dealing with emotions last night, and to fellow students' understandings these teachings, I put together a number of things that struck me is saying something about levels of dealing with emotions.</p>
<p>The first level, what we might call the level of not particularly dealing with an emotion, is the ordinary level of simply and automatically identifying with the emotion as it occurs.  This is the automatization of ordinary consciousness.  The emotion then mobilizes most or all of your consciousness to fit in with it, brings up related material like memories and similar emotions, and creates a "story" centered around the emotion that can take you far from reality, and that can goad you into doing things which will create a lot of karma, which you will later regret.  An emotional "storm" may go on for minutes or hours after the original stimulus arousing it has ended.</p>
<p>The next level of dealing with emotions would be trying to detect them as they happen but then keep them from rising to a strong level, where they take you over.  This could be done by concentrating on something else, by deliberately pushing the emotion down, by getting involved in some other activity to take your awareness energy away from the emotions.  This is useful if it keeps you from acting on emotions in a way which would get you into trouble or create bad karma, and/or reinforcing particular emotional triggers and reactions.</p>
<p>The next level of dealing with emotions, which I have heard Sogyal Rinpoche  stress the last couple of years, is when you realize that emotions are rising, direct your attention to the qualities, the nature of the emotion itself, rather than to the object the emotion has been aroused by.  If a person makes you angry, for example, stop focusing on that person, and try to note the qualities of anger itself.  From my own experience with Gurdjieff type work, I would say that means paying a lot of attention to body sensations, and, from Shinzen Young's vipassana work, paying attention to the internal talk or internal imagery that's associated with the emotion.  The big emphasis is on the ongoing, moment-by-moment qualities of the emotion, not the object of the emotion.  If Bob Smith, e.g., says something that gets me angry and I let the anger take me over, I will be focused on my negative perceptions and on that bastard Bob Smith, the anger will continue to run in an automatic way, etc.  Focusing on the qualities of the emotion itself will keep the story from developing and take the wind out of the sails of the emotion.</p>
<p>The highest level, what I think of as the Dzogchen level, will involve looking inward to try to perceive "who" is feeling the emotion.  This strikes me as the ultimate way of transcending the emotion, and I have some experiential feel what it is like, although it's difficult to describe.</p>
<p>All of these ways of dealing with emotion strike me as useful, at a minimal level as tending to inhibit the expression of negative emotions which will probably generate negative karma, reactive consequences, and, at a deeper level, of cutting down identification with emotions and stories that are associated with various emotions.</p>
<p>What I find missing from Buddhist approaches, as I have been exposed to them to date, is Gurdjieff's idea of <em>emotional intelligence</em>.  Gurdjieff taught that emotions, <em>properly trained</em>, are forms of intelligence.  They alert you to possible realities in your ongoing situation that may require your attention and action.  An intelligent, well functioning emotion then would grab your attention with its quality and power, you would then look more closely at various aspects of reality to see if there is something you need to do.  What you need to do might be take some external action or investigate some specific aspect of the workings of your mind.  Having alerted you, the emotion quickly dies away.  That is intelligent emotions, according to Gurdjieff, are very brief, rather than starting stories which go on for minutes or hours after the event that stimulated them.</p>
<p>I don't think I've been exposed to teachings in a Buddhist framework which talk about making emotions more intelligent.  Rather the general attitude that I think has been there is that emotions are a source of suffering, they drive our samsaric existence, and so we want to disempower these motions.   Compassion is the big exception, as the development of it is an essential part of enlightenment.</p>
<p>As usual, I qualify the above thoughts my noting that I'm not a Buddhist scholar, so I'm sure there are some forms of Buddhism that are different from what I've said above.</p>
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		<title>Spiritual Bypass</title>
		<link>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/490</link>
		<comments>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/490#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Dec 2010 18:34:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Charles T. Tart</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Consciousness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Explorations on the Spiritual Side]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Transpersonal]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[attention]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[awareness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Buddhism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Charles T. Tart]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Charles Tart]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[concentrative meditation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[defense mechanisms]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[disidentification]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[emotions]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[enlightenment]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[happiness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[hippies]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[identifcation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[identification]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[insight meditation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Institute of Transpersonal Psychology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[intention]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ITP]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[John Lilly]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[meditation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[pain]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[psychological defenses]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[psychotherapy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[rationalization]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[repression]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[spiritual bypass]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[sublimation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[subpersonalities]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[subpersonality]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[suffering]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[vipassana]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/?p=490</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dr. Charles T. Tart, Mindfulness, Institute of Transpersonal Psychology, Lecture 4, Part 9 of 19 parts. To start class from beginning, click here. Student: Is that where the subpersonalities come in? And do we maybe need to acknowledge it and then let it go? I wonder. Student: So you have to be somebody before you [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">Dr. Charles T. Tart, Mindfulness, Institute of Transpersonal Psychology,</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"><strong>Lecture 4, Part 9 of 19 parts. To start class from beginning, click <a href="http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/68">here</a>.</strong></span></p>
<p><span style="color: #3366ff;"><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">Student:	Is that where the </span></span><span style="color: #3366ff;"><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"><em>subpersonalities</em></span></span><span style="color: #3366ff;"><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"> come in?  And do we maybe need to acknowledge it and then let it go?   I wonder.</span></span></p>
<p><span style="color: #3366ff;"><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">Student:	So you have to be somebody before you can be nobody?</span></span></p>
<p><span style="color: #3366ff;"><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">Student:	Yeah.  I remember you were talking about that.</span></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">CTT:	Yeah.  You have to be somebody before you can be nobody.  Jack Engler, a Buddhist meditation teacher and psychotherapist, is famous for being the first one to say that, I think.  <em>Disidentification</em> is a tricky process because it can be used in a very pathological way.  You can use disidentification to basically distance yourself from your human feelings and attain a kind of peacefulness that way, but at the cost of impoverishing your life.  Didn’t I talk about John Lilly a couple of classes ago?</span></p>
<p><span style="color: #0066cc;"><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">Student:	Yeah.</span></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">CTT:	He was a famous psychiatrist whose brother or something died when he was a kid, and he was so upset for several days, and then he vowed he’d </span><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"><em>never feel an emotion again</em></span><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">.  And he managed to pull it off for the next 30 or 40 years of his life, without realizing how much he’d lost.  The whole spiritual path can be used that way.  The spiritual path can be a very effective psychological defensive mechanism. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">It’s an attitude of “I’m not going to quarrel with you.  I’m at a higher spiritual level.  I don’t concern myself with mere Earthly disagreements like that.” </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">This is something you always have to watch out for in yourself as well as in the clients you’ll have.  I was talking with somebody today about </span><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"><em>spiritual bypass</em></span><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"> as a defense mechanism.  Everybody mentions it now, but apparently there’s not much actually written about it. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">But it’s so easy to use spirituality as a way to not deal with your ordinary psychological problems.  Now that doesn’t mean, at the extreme, that you must be an absolutely, perfectly psychologically functioning person before you dare to spend a moment on anything spiritual.  But I think it does mean that if you’ve got significant psychological problems, you’ve got to be real careful about not using spirituality to bypass them.  It’s commonly done but it doesn’t work.</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"><span style="color: #3366ff;">Student:	How would somebody go about doing that?  Using spirituality to bypass.  I can’t even imagine having to do that.</span></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">CTT:	One example that came up quite prominently during the hippie era &#8211; you folks are probably too young to remember hippies, but…</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">(Laughter) </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">CTT:	Most of them, well I can’t say most, a lot of them, lived by basically sponging off other people and didn’t feel in the least guilty about it because they were, they believed, pursuing love and enlightenment.  They weren’t going to get trapped in earning a living, which would support a corrupt society anyway.  And hey, in one way that’s true, but it’s also a wonderful rationalization for just sponging off people instead of taking responsibility for yourself. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">I can see Buddhism misapplied that way too.  One way of looking at Buddhism is it’s the ultimate way of being cool, right?  Nothing fazes me!  Nobody can get to me!  I don’t have any suffering!  Well, that’s because you’ve stifled all the feelings that might arise within you.  You’ve stifled them either by some kind of active suppression process or by a distraction process. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">Let me elaborate that.  I was thinking about that earlier today.  If you’re in a situation that makes you unhappy and you want to be happy, what do you do?  Well one thing you might do is to change the actual reality of the situation so it makes you happy.  It’s too cold in the room.  You turn the heater on.  It gets warmer. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">But a lot of times we’re in situations where we can’t really change the external situation.  So if the external situation is making us unhappy, and it’s just going to go on for some long period of time, we will suffer.  But we can do something about our reaction.  Remember that equation, suffering equals pain multiplied by resistance? </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"> S = P x R</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">You can do something to reduce the suffering.  One way is some sort of distraction technique.  Here’s the pathological use of concentrative meditation.  The situation bothers you.  You concentrate so strongly on neutral sensations, like your breathing, you don’t notice the situation at all.  So it doesn’t bother you. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">Your life situation is poor, getting worse.  You can’t get a job.  You don’t have any friends.  You don’t feel good about yourself.  Concentrative meditation.  Get into these abstracted states where you’re beyond any kind of suffering.  Ahh!. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">You come back out of a meditative state.  All these things that make you suffer are still there.  Damn!  Pee quickly, have a bite to eat, and go back into meditation again.  And maybe, if you’re lucky, you can spend your whole life meditating.  Maybe you can join a monastery or a nunnery or an ashram, or somebody else will take care of all the physical stuff and you get to spend all your time meditating; distracting yourself.  So in that sense, meditation can be a distraction, a spiritual bypass. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">I think this is one of the reasons why the Buddha thought that concentrative meditation, for all that it was an incredible technique, wasn’t a complete technique for enlightenment.  If you can distract yourself, you can simply take all your attention and put it somewhere else so there’s none left over to go into the suffering thing. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">You can have specific techniques for dealing with what bothers you, and this is where Western knowledge of psychopathology becomes valuable. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"><em>Remembering our arms and legs now</em></span><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">All we know about classical defense mechanisms; repression, sublimation, rationalization, things like that; these are also ways of dealing with suffering.  But again, like using concentrative meditation as a spiritual bypass, they don’t </span><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"><em>solve</em></span><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"> the problems.  They provide you with a temporary happiness, but they don’t solve the root core of the problem. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">So this discussion started from pointing out that spiritual techniques like concentrative meditation can be an incredible accomplishment to get into these jhanas, states, to get into these incredibly abstracted concentrative states. But while you may rationalize that you’re working on your spiritual development, it may actually in fact be a kind of spiritual bypass, be a way of trying to not have to deal with the real life problems that you’re not very happy with. </span></p>
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		<title>Disidentification</title>
		<link>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/479</link>
		<comments>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/479#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Dec 2010 19:15:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Charles T. Tart</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Consciousness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Transpersonal]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[attention]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[awareness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Charles T. Tart]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Charles Tart]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[disidentification]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[emotions]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[enlightenment]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[identification]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Institute of Transpersonal Psychology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[intention]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ITP]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[meditation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ordinary mind]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[perception]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[psychotherapy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[unusual experiences]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[waking up]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/?p=479</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dr. Charles T. Tart, Mindfulness, Institute of Transpersonal Psychology, Lecture 4, Part 8 of 19 parts. To start class from beginning, click here. Student: I just want to tell you to go back to the broader conversation about thought and thinking. In the Buddhist context, as well as in the Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction version [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"><strong><br />
</strong></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">Dr. Charles T. Tart, Mindfulness, Institute of Transpersonal Psychology, </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"><strong>Lecture 4, Part 8 of 19 parts. To start class from beginning, click <a href="http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/68">here</a>.</strong></span></p>
<p><span style="color: #3366ff;"><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">Student:	I just want to tell you to go back to the broader conversation about thought and thinking.  In the Buddhist context, as well as in the Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction version of Calamine Francis Todd (sp?), the concept of </span></span><span style="color: #3366ff;"><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"><em>nonjudgment</em></span></span><span style="color: #3366ff;"><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"> about what we’re thinking, or that we are thinking, is very important.  And I just think that’s important, especially as a clinician, because not everyone’s going to necessarily have that goal of becoming enlightened.  A lot of times people are just struggling to work with a particular issue and you get them to understand how to work with the mind as a tool instead of having it control them.</span></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">CTT:	You could think about that in terms of </span><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"><em>disidentification</em></span><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"> too. That normally every thought that comes along, it’s ME!, and how could I go against ME!?  But if you create the larger container in which thought is one activity among a number of activities, then it’s not such automatic identification.  Then thoughts don’t have quite so much power. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">You’ve probably read about it at this point in </span><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"><em>Living the Mindful Life,</em></span><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"> but did you read about the exercise I gave people with the milk carton to see identification at work? </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">(A chorus of “Yes” “The cup.”)</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">CTT:	OK.  I’ve done it with a milk carton too, but milk cartons are messy.  You tend to get old milk splashed all over the place.  (Laughter)  But it really is amazing how just by a simple request of telling people to identify with something for a minute, and then stomping on it, it literally </span><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"><em>hurts</em></span><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"> some people.  That identification process can be so powerful. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"><span style="color: #3366ff;">Student:	If we know how to do that so well, do we know how to disidentify well too?</span></span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">CTT:	I don’t think so.  For most people the identification process is automatic.  It’s not like, “Here’s a skill.  I want you to use it now.”  Identification just keeps happening as a result of your particular life history conditioning.  If you tell them to disidentify with something, most people would probably be skilled, able to do it, if it’s an unimportant thing you tell them to disidentify with.  But if I tell you, “John, did you see that kid with the sledge hammer working over your motorcycle?”</span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">(Laughter) </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">That’s a little harder to disidentify with, isn’t it? </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">(Laughter) </span></p>
<p><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;"><span style="color: #3366ff;">Student:	Yeah.  I think that’s the problem with disidentification.  The problem that people have with it is it’s a spiritual practice in some sense.  You know, “That is not me.  That’s not me.”  But the problem is people get to a point where if you try to keep disidentifying yourself from all these things that you think of as parts of yourself, you get to a feeling of, “Then, what is it?”  You know, “What is the self?” or “What is me?”  And that’s scary, and difficult to figure out.</span></span></p>
<p><span style="color: #3366ff;"><span style="font-family: 'Comic Sans MS', cursive;">Student:	Well, I think there’s no description once you get to that point, which is the problem.  Because what you are is going to unfold next, and it hasn’t happened yet. </span></span></p>
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		<title>Identification and Disidentification</title>
		<link>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/298</link>
		<comments>http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/archives/298#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Feb 2010 03:37:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Dr. Charles T. Tart</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Consciousness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Transpersonal]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[attention]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[awareness]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Charles T. Tart]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Charles Tart]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[disidentification]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Gurdjieff]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[identification]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Institute of Transpersonal Psychology]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[intention]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ITP]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jon Kabat-Zinn]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[meditation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ordinary mind]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.paradigm-sys.com/?p=298</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dr. Charles T. Tart, Mindfulness, Institute of Transpersonal Psychology, Lecture 4, Part 7 of 19 parts. To start class from beginning, click here. Student: I just want to tell you to go back to the broader conversation about thought and thinking. In the Buddhist context, as well as in the Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction version [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><!-- 		@page { margin: 0.79in } 		P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } 		A:link { so-language: zxx } --></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="CENTER"><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;">Dr. Charles T. Tart, Mindfulness, Institute of Transpersonal Psychology, </span></p>
<p style="margin-left: 1.5in; text-indent: -1.5in;" align="CENTER"><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;"><strong>Lecture 4, Part 7 of 19 parts. To start class from beginning, click <a href="../archives/68">here</a>.</strong></span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #3366ff;"><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;">Student:	I just want to tell you to go back to the broader conversation about thought and thinking.  In the Buddhist context, as well as in the Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction version of Jon Kabat-Zinn's work, the concept of </span></span><span style="color: #3366ff;"><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;"><em>nonjudgment</em></span></span><span style="color: #3366ff;"><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;"> about what we’re thinking, or that we are thinking, is very important.  And I just think that’s important, especially as a clinician, because not everyone’s going to necessarily have that goal of becoming enlightened.  A lot of times people are just struggling to work with a particular issue and you get them to understand how to work with the mind as a tool instead of having it control them.</span></span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;">CTT:	You could think about that in terms of </span><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;"><em>disidentification</em></span><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;"> too. That normally every thought that comes along, it’s ME!, and how could I go against me?  But if you create the larger container in which thought is one activity among a number of activities, then it’s not such automatic identification.  Then thoughts don’t have quite so much power. </span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;">You’ve probably read about it at this point in </span><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;"><em>Living the Mindful Life,</em></span><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;"> but did you read about the exercise I gave people with the milk carton to see identification at work? </span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;">(A chorus of “Yes” “The cup.”)</span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;">CTT:	OK.  I’ve done it with a milk carton too, but milk cartons are messy.  You tend to get old milk splashed all over the place.  (Laughter)  But it really is amazing how just by a simple request of telling people to identify with something for a minute, and then stomping on it, it literally </span><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;"><em>hurts</em></span><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;"> some people.  That identification process can be so powerful. </span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;"><span style="color: #3366ff;">Student:	If we know how to do that so well, do we know how to disidentify well too?</span></span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;">CTT:	I don’t think so.  For most people the identification process is automatic.  It’s not like, “Here’s a skill.  I want you to use it now.”  Identification just keeps happening as a result of your particular life history and conditioning.  If you tell them to disidentify with something, most people would probably be skilled, able to do it, <em>if</em> it’s an unimportant thing you tell them to disidentify with.  But if I tell you, “John, did you see that kid with the sledge hammer working over your motorcycle?”</span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;" align="JUSTIFY"><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;">(Laughter) (John rides a motorcycle to ITP)</span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;">That’s a little harder to disidentify with, isn’t it? </span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;">(Laughter) </span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #3366ff;"><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;">Student:	Yeah.  I think that’s the problem with disidentification.  The problem that people have with it is it’s a spiritual practice in some sense.  You know, “That is not me.  That’s not me.”  But the problem is people get to a point where if you try to keep disidentifying yourself from all these things that you think of as parts of yourself, you get to a feeling of, “Then, what is it?”  You know, “What is the self?” or “What is me?”  And that’s scary, and difficult to figure out.</span></span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;"><span style="color: #3366ff;"><span style="font-family: Comic Sans MS,cursive;">Student:	Well, I think there’s no description once you get to that point, which is the problem.  Because what you are is going to unfold next, and it hasn’t happened yet. </span></span></p>
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